Ramona Flowers vs Wyldstyle (Scott Pilgrim vs The Lego Movie) VS Prediction Blog

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“The past is never where you think you left it.” - Katherine Anne Porter

Ramona Flowers, the delivery girl with seven evil exes from Scott Pilgrim
Wyldstyle, the nonconformist master builder from the Lego Movie

When you’re a guy down on his luck, you might find the idea of getting whisked into a big adventure by a mysterious woman with dyed hair who you start a relationship with to be an appealing idea. Though for the guys taken in by these two, things weren’t quite so simple. Not only were these girls ones with pasts they were on the run from, but the trials they went through on these journeys tested both their resolve and their bonds with each other. Though at the end, both came out better people who were far more prepared to face the future. 

Before We Begin

For Ramona, this will be soft compositing her with all major Scott Pilgrim related media. While it has been stated that the various continuities are all canon, there are many elements of each that are contradictory and incompatible with each other story and mechanic wise, meaning just a pure composite is simply not feasible in my opinion. As such, the main source of precedence will be the original comic, as well as the Takes Off anime series due to the comic’s creator having significant writing credits on it, meaning the divergences it has can be considered valid. Secondary sources, such as the film and the game, will also be considered, but only as long as new elements they introduce aren’t outright contradictory to the original series. 

For Wyldstyle, similar standards apply. The main media considered is the main 4 films, with supporting evidence from other media that is in line with them. This includes the animated shorts and commercials, the various books and licensed games, and even details from the actual sets. There is shockingly a lot of stuff to talk about in the Lego Movie continuity, not all of which I was able to track down, but I did make an effort to ensure this covered everything of importance. The big elephant in the room would be the fact there are plenty of characters from other series that are present within each of the movies. However, not only are these clearly meant to be separate versions of their original counterparts, but Lego Dimensions pretty clearly establishes that the versions within the movie continuity are also meant to be separate from the other Lego licensed theme universes. This means there will be no scaling to feats from other Lego themes, such as Ninjago or the standard Lego DC continuity. 

The last notable point to bring up would be crossovers. For Wyldstyle, the big elephant in the room would be Lego Dimensions. As mentioned, this won’t be using it for any direct cross scaling, but as she is a major player in the main story of it, equipment and abilities seen within it will be included as long as they’re in line with what she could do within her core titles. As for Ramona, while she has had some minor appearances in other comics, for the most part these won’t be factored in due to them not really giving her anything worth talking about. The only other point to bring up is Funko Fusion. While it is definitely not canon, as she is in the game under a similar context to Wyldstyle being in Dimensions, I’ll also include some minor bits of equipment from it for the sake of fairness and leaving no stone unturned. 

Background

Ramona

“You’re not alone. You’re just having some idiotic dream.”

In Ontario, Canada, there lived a slacker by the name of Scott Pilgrim. He had just gotten out of college and had made some success for himself as the bassist for his band, Sex Bob-Bomb. But his life was going nowhere fast, thanks to his lack of drive and tendency to ignore his problems. But everything changed after he met the girl of his dreams, rather literally given she had been using his head as a shortcut for deliveries. Her name was Ramona Flowers, and while things were a bit awkward at first, the two would quickly hit it off. But to keep with her, Scott just had to do one thing: Beat all 7 of her evil ex-partners in a fight. 

Scott would be nervous about this, but he’d stay by Ramona, beating up her evil exes whenever they came up. But as it turned out, having seven former partners that wanted nothing more than to kill your future boyfriends was kind of a red flag. As while Ramona did split with them for good reason, the ways she did it did nothing but hurt them, and her tendency to run away from her past did nothing but make them resent her. So, when Scott was forced to confront his own demons, he also began to reckon with Ramona’s past. And while they did end up separated, they’d ultimately reconnect and resolve to fight for the future together. 

…but that’s assuming everything went to plan. In a world where Scott was taken away before any of that could happen, Ramona had to reckon with her mistakes herself. Not only did she end up making amends with her exes without needing to beat them up, she even managed to make them a bit less evil. And even after a future version of Scott came back to try and ensure that he didn’t need to improve, Ramona ultimately helped defeat him and give herself the chance to move on. While Scott has shown he’d be willing to take on the world or even the universe for Ramona, she has shown she’s just as willing to protect his precious little life. 

Wyldstyle

“Come with me if you want to not die.”

In the town of Bricksburg, Emmet Brickowski lived a normal enough life. That is, until one fateful night where he accidentally found the Piece of Resistance, an artifact that could seal a secret super weapon known as the Kragle, which the leader of his world President Business wanted to use to glue everything into a perfect form forever. He’d be pretty out of his depth at this, but thankfully there were those who were willing to put a stop to this, Master Builders who kept their creativity in a world which locked that away. And the one who’d save him was a nonconformist woman by the name of Wyldstyle. No, she’s not a DJ. 

Initially, their relationship would be a bit rocky, as Wyldstyle had been convinced she would be the special one who could save the world, only for it to instead go to a nobody who wasn’t even a Master Builder. But as she helped him figure out his way, she’d eventually come to recognise that he could come into his own as a hero. And after he seemingly sacrificed himself to save her and her fellow Builders, she’d press on to inspire other guys like him to follow his example and be creative, showing everyone could strike back if they could. And, after he came back, she’d even come to realise she had fallen in love with him.

Though their relationship wasn’t without some struggles. After an attack by Duplo aliens that turned their world post-apocalyptic, she tried to get serious while he stayed more chipper. While she tried to get him to grow up, she eventually realized that her drive to take herself seriously was mostly from her own internal struggle with her own past, and pushing him away only led to him nearly killing the world due to the manipulations of his future self who felt abandoned by her. As such, after saving the world again, Lucy would accept her world for what it is. Whether everything is awesome or not, she’s still ready to kick ass if needed. 

Intelligence & Skill

Ramona

While Scott was the one who did most of the fighting, Ramona has had plenty of chances to show off that she can hold her own just as well. Most notably, she’s been able to directly fight against her former girlfriend Roxanne Richards, a half ninja, who she personally fights in all 4 major continuities. She’s also kept up in fights with Knives, a full ninja, and Envy Adams, Scott’s own evil ex. She’s also shown the skill to keep up with groups of enemies, such as the bullies she beat up alongside Matthew, Wallace’s stunt doubles, and basically everyone in the game. And she’s also been able to help in battles with Gideon Graves and Even Older Scott, who both acted as the final bosses for Scott’s journey. In these battles, she has been shown to be fairly skilled. Not only has she been able to directly puppet Scott’s attacks when he’s fighting people he doesn’t want to hurt, she’s also been able to use her agility to quickly get around and keep up with others. 

Wyldstyle

Wyldstyle is a pretty effective fighter. She’s regularly been shown to be able to take on entire groups of robots at plenty of points, and is pretty effective at escaping from them when needed. She’s comparable to the other Master Builders, like Batman and Lloyd, both of whom have taken on threats going after their respective cities basically daily, and she’s pretty adaptable, able to quickly come to terms with the other Lego themed worlds, and has gone on trips to other dimensions entirely, on which she helped put a stop to the multiversal threat Lord Vortech. Though her real skill is as a Master Builder, as she’s shown to be an exceptionally imaginative builder with Lego Bricks, able to create practically anything with the right parts. 

Equipment

Ramona

Subspace Suitcase

Her most well used piece of equipment, this is a bag which can hold as she wants, whether that be her main weapons, random pickup-able ones, other random bullshit, or even entire people. This is because the bag is actually a portal to Subspace (more on that later), meaning it’s basically got an entire dimension of space which she can sift through at will. She’s also used this to her advantage to seal away dangerous attacks. Though if the bag ends up destroyed, everything in it will be unleashed. In Funko Fusion, it’s also shown to be able to turn into a cannon that fires pixel based projectiles, which I’m sure is very game changing and worth bringing up that entire game because without cross scaling it adds nothing else. 

Hammer

Her most well known weapon is this hammer, which she’s used often in battles, being fairly proficient with using it to knock away foes. In the game, she seems to be able to randomly summon it out of nowhere for certain attacks. It also can deal bonus damage to girls and elders. 

Baseball Bat

In the comic, she was also shown to be able to use a titanium baseball bat, which can deal extra damage to blondes. 

Power of Love

After accepting Scott and resolving to run from her past, Ramona ended up earning the Power of Love, a sword similar to Scott’s. Not only is the sword able to emit fire and heal her wounds when it’s drawn, but in the game it’s able to fire energy waves at enemies. 

Roller Skates

To help roll around for deliveries, Ramona uses her roller skates. 

Consumables

In the game, she can get food from shops which can increase her stats when in shops, and she can take one food item with her in levels, which will heal her up if she loses all her health. Not gonna list all of them here since there’s no real functional difference beyond that. 

Extra Lives


(yes I’m reusing this edit)

Extra lives exist within the Scott Pilgrim series, with Scott being able to use his to almost instantly come back from death. While Ramona didn’t personally use these in the comics, in the game she can get access to them, with her being able to carry up to 9 extra lives at once. 

Wyldstyle

Relic Scanner

Originally seen in the movie, this is a scanner that was able to track the location of the Piece of Resistance, as well as remotely open a path between the Lego worlds. While it’s minor in the movie, in Lego Dimensions it got a few upgrades. Not only is she able to use it to make invisible objects visible and detect other powerful artifacts, but with a quick upgrade from Batman (The standard Lego one, not the Lego Movie one) it was able to disrupt a rift that was sending them between worlds. While how exactly this functions is a bit unclear, this could imply she could use it to disrupt other methods of forcible dimensional travel. 

Grappling Hook

Presumably borrowed from her former boyfriend, this is a grappling hook which can be used to do the things you would expect a grappling hook to do and which is handy for escaping the authorities. She also has access to this in the second movie game. 

Revolver

While in her Old West outfit, she was shown to be equipped with a revolver to shoot at targets. 

Space Blaster

In her Space outfit, she’s equipped with a space age gun that can shoot at targets.

Crossbow and Shield

During the Apocalypse, it was shown that she had access to a crossbow, as well as a shield made from a stop sign. 

Builder Page

In the second movie game, you can use this to create various prefab objects directly by spending bricks. Worth noting that in the game’s version of events she accompanies Emmet on the rescue mission as the second player, so it is fair to consider stuff from this game to be stuff she also has access to canonically. Some notable creations you can make with this include:

Tools & Items

In the second movie game, you’re able to unlock various tools that anyone you play as can also use, including Wyldstyle. There are a lot of potential tools this game offers, but to stick to the main notable ones:

Super Parts and Items

The second movie’s game also had more powerful gadgets that are unlocked from Super Relics. The Super Parts are hats each character can wear to give themself several abilities, while the Super Items are equippable ones they can swap to. 

Abilities

Ramona

Energy Projection

In the game, Ramona has been shown to be able to create blasts of energy with her attacks. 

Hyper Mode

In the game, after beating up enough guys or consuming food, Ramona is able to enter this state, which can drastically increase her speed and lets her combo enemies easier. 

Heat Manipulation

A weird ability she has that’s never really elaborated on is the fact that she’s so hot that snow will literally melt around her as she skates. 

Flight

Another weird ability was that in a couple cutscenes in the game, she’s seen flying through the air when kissing Scott. Odd. 

4th Wall Awareness

Scott Pilgrim is a series that has a pretty loose 4th wall. Ramona herself has acknowledged comics being non-canon, and others have reacted to subtitles, sound effect bleeps, and even directly advertised the comic.  

Subspace

 

By far the most convoluted part of Scott Pilgrim is Subspace. These are basically mental worlds which she’s able to go into through either finding portals or directly through dreams, creating avatars when doing so. Within Subspace there are many powers people are able to use and get access to, and as one of the more skilled people in the cast at using it, she should likely recreate anything other characters have been able to do within it. Some notable abilities those who can wield it can do include:

The Glow

Thanks to the biggest dick of her exes, Gideon, Ramona ended up afflicted with this effect, which seems to come out in times of stress. This can enhance negative elements of people’s emotions to make them act more irrationally, and while usually it’s used to seal away people in their own minds, Ramona has learned to live with its effects and use it to her advantage. 

Beyond making her head glow, it also seems to give her some abilities. It is potentially responsible for her ability to directly teleport to Subspace, which does make some sense given it’s supposed to seal you in Subspace, meaning this is likely a more active usage of it. More interestingly, Scott later demonstrates he can spread it to others by directly headbutting Gideon. Not only did this seem to depower him, but that also means the effects it has on those who aren’t used to it could be spread to an opponent. Which could be potentially dangerous, given the aforementioned “makes you irrational and overemotional to the point of sealing yourself in your mind” element. 

Resistances

Wyldstyle

Minifigure Physiology

Minifigures can be a bit odd. They can freely pop off their headpieces, rotate in any direction, can slightly detach their limbs for certain movements, and can seemingly detach parts of their body to change into different clothes. It’s even been shown that they can reattach their limbs if they get separated. However, unlike other Lego series, they still need to stay together to be alive, as something like a decapitation or getting physically ripped apart can just kill them. They also have shown some slight bits of toonforce, like pulling stuff out of nowhere and floating around through the air while building. 

Master Building

As a Master Builder, Wyldstyle has been shown to be able to quickly put together contraptions by pulling parts from random LEGO objects to repurpose them. She can look around the area for notable parts and identify them by name, before quickly throwing them together into builds. In the games, this can also briefly create a tornado when gathering parts. This isn’t restricted just to standard bricks, as in the game it was also shown that they could also adapt to putting together contraptions based on Lord Business’ relics, which are real life objects. It also showed it could even be used offensively to tear apart enemy ships or even rip apart enemy robots for parts directly. In the second game, this got expanded into Build Attacks, in which you’re able to quickly create a weapon to directly take out groups of enemies. Some notable creations she’s made include: 

Though this is hardly the limit here. After all, beyond needing proper materials, the only real limit is her imagination.

Mind Projection

To help figure out if Emmet had the potential to be a Master Builder, Wyldstyle and Virtuvius were able to do a weird ritual to enter his mind. While how the ritual works is a bit unclear in the movie, the junior novelization indicated that all she needed to do was focus on entering his mind while touching his head. This was shown to take both her and Emmet into his mind while leaving their bodies still in reality. 

Agility

In the games, Wyldstyle is able to use various parkour objects to quickly maneuver around to places others can’t. She can climb on hanging bars, run on walls, hang beneath platforms, scale walls, twirl between adjacent poles, wall jump, hop between the roofs of cars, and climb wires.

Hacking

While I wasn’t able to get direct footage of this, in her Space outfit she is able to hack into terminals by playing a Pac-Man-esque hacking minigame. 

4th Wall Awareness

Beyond being aware she is a toy that children play with in her own universe, Wyldstyle has shown to have a more direct awareness of the 4th Wall. She has reacted to title cards, teleported by coming from above the screen, recognised when she was in a commercial, directly talked into the camera, gone into the real world directly, and acknowledged her own voice actress in an in-character interview. Though perhaps the most blatant example of this was in the above shown 4D film, in which she and Emmet were able to get help directly from the audience on what parts to use in a build. 

Broadway Force

Another odd ability used by many throughout the Lego Movie world has been the ability to start spontaneous musical numbers, which have been acknowledged in-universe meaning they're canon, and which plenty of people have been able to do. Wyldstyle herself has taken advantage of this a few times, such as when she and Emmet distracted a bunch of robots into doing a musical number while they snuck away. There’s been some weird stuff people have done during these songs, whether that be keeping them up for hours, summoning backup dancers, randomly moving objects, and teleporting between locations. 

Resistances

Feats

(Note: For feats starting with ”can”, these are referring to feats you can do in various games with any character that is playable, so even if different characters are doing them in the clips Ramona and Wyldstyle are able to do them as well) 

Ramona

Overall

  • Taken on numerous mooks in a fight

  • Has kept up in a fight with Knives, Envy, and Roxy

  • Helped Scott defeat Gideon Graves and Even Older Scott

  • Ultimately made peace with her exes and her past 

  • Stole the spot of main character from Scott in the anime

Power

Speed

Durability

Wyldstyle

Overall

  • One of the most skilled Master Builders

  • Inspired the citizens of the world to rise up against Lord Business

  • Helped save the world from Rex and his plot to unleash Armamageddon

  • With Batman and Gandalf, ended the threat of Lord Vortech

  • Got with Emmet while learning to not hide from her past

Power

Speed

Durability

Scaling

Ramona

Scott Pilgrim

At plenty of points throughout the series, it’s been shown that Ramona is on par with Scott in a fight, whether that be directly puppeting him for attacks, fighting alongside him throughout the game, and helping take on his ultimate foes in Gideon and Even Older Scott. So her scaling to him is pretty logical. 

The Evil Exes

As the big point of the series is to beat up Ramona’s evil ex-boyfriends (and ex-girlfriend from her sexy phase), Scott being able to take these guys on means she also scales to them. Beyond that, the anime series does show that they’re all generally comparable to each other in a fight, most notably with Matthew managing to beat Gideon in a duel. Finally, Ramona was able to keep up with Even Older Scott, who was able to defeat all of them easily. 

Wyldstyle

Emmet

At plenty of points throughout the franchise, it’s been shown that Lucy is generally more competent in a fight than Emmet, and the two have generally been able to keep up with each other well. This means that she should likely compare to his notable feats.

Batman & Other Gotham City Denizens

Wyldstyle has also been shown to be on par with her former boyfriend, the Dark Knight, in various fights. This also should lead into scaling to the various denizens of Gotham given he is the regular protector of the city who has fought against and alongside many people from it. 

Lloyd & Other Ninjago City Denizens

While the events of the Lego Ninjago Movie are a bit disconnected from the other films, Lloyd was confirmed to be one of the Master Builders in the original film. While he does look different from how he’d later be established to look in the Ninjago Movie’s media, this design later shows up in the game, and many elements from his film specifically have shown up in other Lego Movie media, indicating they likely are meant to be in the same world. As a fellow Master Builder Wyldstyle should likely scale to his feats, and others in Ninjago City by proxy.  

Other Master Builders

The various other Master Builders seen in the series have been shown to be on par with each other in various fights. As she is one of the most prominent, Wyldstyle should definitely compare to them. 

Weaknesses

Ramona

She has a crippling weakness to being crushed beneath arcade machines. Beyond that, Ramona does have issues in terms of confronting her mistakes and tends to run away from problems, which has led to her ending relationships on sour notes plenty of times and is why her exes ended up forming a league to kill her future boyfriends in the first place. And while she can keep up in fights well, her tools are also vulnerable to being broken or stolen. 

Wyldstyle

While she is cool, Lucy does have some weak points. For one, she can be pretty locked up emotionally and doesn’t like confronting her own problems. She also does need to have proper materials on hand for her creations, and needs time to build them in the first place. Finally, unlike other Lego series, in the movie continuity minifigures need their body to stay together to stay alive, as a beheading or getting torn apart would be enough to kill them. 

Before the Verdict

Ramona

Todd Ingram Scaling

Yeah, it’s time to talk about this fucking guy again. If you know of Scott Pilgrim in VS, you know what the most controversial topic with scaling the series is. And if you remember my blog on Scott vs Travis, I did make a pretty long discussion against the idea of Scott scaling to Todd. I will say that, while there are a couple points where I don’t agree with my old opinion on where I put Scott Pilgrim there, I do stand by the fact that I do not think there is sufficient evidence behind Scott scaling to Todd in the media that was out at the time of me making that blog. Though in the interest of avoiding redundancy on something I spent a while going over already, I will not be restating that whole case here. Just read the above link if you want my thoughts on that matter. 

All that said, I do think that there is now sufficient evidence to argue people scale to Todd thanks to Takes Off. Not only did the series more properly show the exes to be on par with each other in combat, but the existence of Even Older Scott, who was able to stomp all of the exes at once, and who Scott and Ramona end up briefly contending with themself, means I feel there is now a more solid case that they can scale to Todd. There is still the issue of it potentially being an outlier, as no matter how you slice this it is still a pretty significant jump in numbers compared to most of the other stats for the series. As such, I will just leave it as the high end for stats. 

But before moving on, there is one more point on this feat to go over. In the movie version of the scene where Todd punches the moon, it appears that this impact slightly shook the moon as it happened, which would buff the feat up to 63.65 Yottatons. Quite an upgrade, but I don’t really think this particular interpretation of the feat is fair to use. First off, there is the issue of it contradicting the original comic, as the original version of this feat did not have any kind of visual effect implying that this movement took place, such as movement lines or after images. Additionally, given the context of the scene is her recounting the event in a more minimalist style, it’s also questionable if this is meant to be a literal effect to represent the feat as opposed to it simply being a bit of animation for the sake of emphasis. 

Finally, there is the matter of consistency. For one, this would make the feat significantly stronger than it is in the other calcs for it. And this feat was already potentially running into the issue of being an outlier, but in the context of the movie, it’s even worse in that regard. Not only is the detail of Todd punching the moon twice adapted out entirely due to Envy’s decreased screen time, there’s also not really any argument behind anyone scaling to Todd if you just look at the movie’s events in a vacuum, as Scott is significantly more on the backfoot throughout his fight with Todd and no one else ever puts up a fight with him. Trying to use it to buff his comic feat also hits the issue of it being retroactive scaling, as again, there isn’t anything in the original comic indicating Todd did more than just punch a hole in the moon. And of course there only being one other potential case of cosmic level power in the franchise (which will be gone over below) means this being an outlier is an even more likely issue. So I’m sticking to the continental level calcs for this feat as that feels far more consistent. 

Gideon’s West Coast Nuking

Another questionable bit of scaling from the comic comes from a statement that Gideon “may or may not” be able to “nuke the entire West Coast”. To be blunt, the issue with this feat is that there’s no reason to treat it as an actual feat. It is in the context of Bryan saying stuff Gideon might be able to do, is in the middle of several statements that we know are untrue, was part of the pitch document which was made before the series was even fully created meaning it’s very likely outdated, has never been backed up by anything Gideon has done on screen, and is fairly vague on the face of it. While Todd’s feat could give precedence to it not being an outlier depending on how you want to calc it, that is completely irrelevant here because there is simply no reason to treat this as a feat in the first place. 

Even Older Scott’s Subspace Busting

And now the biggest new point brought by the Scott Pilgrim Takes Off series. Beyond stomping the Evil Exes, the even older version of Scott that serves as the final boss of the series has one particularly powerful feat to fo over. I’ll cover that in a moment, but to start off, there is a question of if people can scale to him in the first place, given he’s portrayed as effortlessly above everyone and ultimately was only defeated by an incredibly nonstandard fusion form Ramona did with her future self sending him to the future. However, given multiple characters were able to damage and take hits from him in the preceding fight, including Ramona herself, it should stand to reason that it’s reasonable to at least heavily downscale his feats. Said feats are mostly in line with the main series, with one major exception, that being when he was able to spread his aura all around Subspace. And Takes Off shows that Subspace is rather large, containing what appear to be stars and other planets, indicating it was spreading at cosmic distances quickly. This means that, assuming this attack spread throughout all of Subspace, it would be traveling at 35 - 107 Billion times the speed of light. 

Now first off, this is admittedly a pretty vague feat where this being exactly how it functioned is a pretty big question mark. But, even if Ramona shouldn’t fully scale to Old!Scott himself, she should likely be able to scale to this attack’s speed in terms of her own reaction speed, as she was able to catch a blast of this aura in her bag. To go over the scene, the attack is seen blasting apart the supporting cast, and it cuts to them getting sent back to the theater, before Ramona comes out of nowhere and manages to get the attack inside her bag. While her movement being offscreen could knock against how fast she was actually reacting to it, the fact she managed to successfully block it at all means this being a speed feat for her at least has some backing.  

The more questionable bit here is in terms of it being used for attack potency, as if you assume this is an explosion, it spreading this far would give it power equivalent to 51.779 Foe, which is Solar System level. Rather impressive, but there’s a lot of issues in treating it like that, to the point where not even the guy who originally made this calc buys using it in this way. First off, see the above point on the attack being rather vague presentation wise, and this is also an issue that can apply with assuming this has a level of power. This is especially so given we don’t really see any results that would imply this had any level of physical power, as the rest of the fight takes place right in the center of it and yet there’s no sign it’s blasting apart the ground. But beyond that, while there is a decent explanation on why Ramona could scale to its speed, there is far less to go on in terms of if anyone can scale to it power wise. Most obviously, while characters were able to take some physical hits from him, no one is seen surviving this energy attack. As everyone who was hit by it got one shot by it, there really isn’t anything backing up the idea of them even downscaling this feat. 

Some have argued there is a roundabout way to scale this back to people thanks to the attack destroying Ramona’s bag, as in the original comic Gideon was able to slice apart Ramona’s bag, seemingly destroying it in a similar manner which implies it’s off similar power. While these two situations are similar, assuming this means they’re comparable in power is rather questionable when you break it down. First off, this is combining elements of two different continuities that were made years apart, meaning even with Takes Off being more canon than the other adaptations, assuming it buffs the original comic’s feat does fall under retroactive scaling. It’s also worth noting that Gideon was among the guys who were one shot by this attack and earlier explicitly had his own strongest attack overpowered by Older!Scott, which is a pretty big knock against the idea he should compare to it in the first place. Finally, while both of these instances involve Ramona’s bag being destroyed, they’re not really that comparable if you actually look into the details, as Gideon’s attack still kept the bag mostly intact, whereas Older!Scott just completely destroyed it entirely. Arguing that an attack that only cut the bag in half is comparable to an attack that destroyed it entirely simply does not make much sense. 

Finally there is still the obvious point of this being a massive outlier, as no matter how you slice it, this is a very significant jump in numbers for Scott Pilgrim as a series in regards to power. To put this into context, even including Todd’s best scaling, this feat would be 163 quintillion times stronger than the best feats seen for Scott Pilgrim media otherwise. And narratively speaking, there really isn’t any reasonable argument against the idea of it being written off as an outlier. It is the single instance of a feat at this scale, was done by a character who people heavily downscale from at best, and is a minor throwaway element that doesn’t really impact the actual plot of the series in any significant way if you removed it. I know and agree with the sentiment that “lmao outlier” is a bit of a lame argument if used as the sole debunking point for a feat, and I have tried not to rely on it in recent blogs, but in this case I’m putting my foot down and saying you cannot ignore that element. This is also an element that can apply to it in terms of speed, since it’s also 14 billion times faster than the best speed feat otherwise, but given there’s at least a more solid argument she scales to this speed, I feel it’s comparatively less egregious than the power, which has issues on it’s own beyond just being an outlier. 

TLDR: Even Older Scott is treated as a god tier above everyone, but multiple characters being able to take basic hits from him means they should downscale him at worst. When it comes to the big feat, Ramona should arguably scale to it in terms of speed, though the presentation does make it a bit questionable, meaning I will simply leave it as a debatable high end. However, there are multiple issues in trying to use it as a feat for attack potency, meaning that it should not make anyone Solar System level in power. 

Immeasurable Robot-01?

Speaking of Takes Off, another point to bring up is the expanded role of Robot-01. To make a long story short, Scott ends up being sent into the future due to the future versions of the Twins upgrading the robot to be capable of this. Rather notably, to do this they were able to “disconnect it from space and time” and made it experience it’s entire existence all at once. This could imply it now has time bending speeds, which is backed up by it being able to control its past actions from the future. But there are issues in applying this to the rest of the cast. First off, we don’t really have any context for what this actually means for Robot-01 in terms of its speeds, as its creation of portals through time are never stated to be as a result of its speed, and its nature as a robot implies it just has really good processors and which means no human should scale. But even if you were to accept this, scaling it back to anyone else is also really questionable. Not only is it a bit unclear whether or not the past versions of Robot-01 also got upgraded in speed as opposed to it just applying to the future version, but no one in the main cast ever properly fights the upgraded Robot-01, just expose him to some quick slapstick. You also can’t use it to retroactively scale it back to other continuities where Scott directly fights it, as this was explicitly only possible by the future versions of the Twins upgrading him, something that never happened in other continuities. The only character you could argue scales is Even Older Scott, as his stomping of the cast includes Robot-01, but not only is there the aforementioned issues with assuming anyone properly scales to him, there’s also not really anything indicating he was explicitly outspeeding the Robot’s reactions, but rather Robot-01 just had no possible way to compete with him in power and got overwhelmed. 

Scott Pilgrim Multipliers?

To go over the last stat related topic on Ramona, we need to go back to the movie, where it’s shown his katana can multiply his power by 7. This is pretty important, given that buffs in the Scott Pilgrim series are otherwise additive, so this could be used as a solid indication of how strong these buffs are meant to be. However, I feel there are a few issues in applying it to a soft composite of the series like this. First of all, this buff existing at all is a complete invention of the movie. While Gideon has wielded vaguely similar blades in the other continuities, the movie is the only one where it’s explicitly shown to provide a buff of this level to his power. And the events around the blade with Gideon’s final confrontation are a pretty significant departure from the events of the original comics, most notably with how Scott’s final sword was the Power of Self-Respect rather than the Power of Understanding. This all means that just assuming the buff to his sword applies to all Scott Pilgrim media where he has a sword is pretty questionable on the face of it. 

The other issue is that it’s pretty questionable to use the multiplier on anyone that isn’t Scott or Gideon. Scott was only able to briefly match the power of the blade with said movie original sword, which eventually ends up breaking, and Knives ends up disarming Gideon of said katana for the rest of the battle where she helps Scott beat him down, meaning neither of their buffs were active as Gideon lost the fight. And while Scott did earlier fight Gideon with the Power of Love, not only is the movie version of the blade shown to be a bit stronger than it is in the comic continuity, it also never actually clashed with Gideon’s pixel katana, just his cane sword that was later shown to be no match for the Power of Self-Respect. Ramona herself was only shown to be able to hurt him by catching him off guard with a kick to the nuts, which he was only briefly stunned by, so there’s not much of a solid indication that she should scale to Gideon’s full power with the Katana. 

Similar issues lie in Scott’s multipliers from after he was revived in the movie, which show him getting 5 X2 multipliers. First off, the editing does make it a bit unclear whether this is all a big X2 multiplier, an additive amount of multipliers for a total of X10, or the multipliers stacking on each other making it a X32 multiplier. But regardless, this whole sequence is also a pretty big departure from the events of the comics, as his extra life resetting him from the start of a battle is very different from how this was handled in the original comic, which just revived him midfight. It’s also not really clear how he actually gets these multipliers, whether that be these being from his confidence or a result of the extra life or anything else. Though there’s at least a more solid case that Ramona could scale to it, given she was able to keep up with Knives, who was on par with Scott in this state. 

Finally, even if you were to use them, since Ramona does not have access to the methods they used to buff their strength herself, these multipliers would only apply to her scaling within the movie continuity. While you might hypothetically be able to apply these to Gideon or Scott’s composite scaling due to these multipliers being results of things they have on hand, Ramona can not scale to their higher numbers in these hypothetical states because they are, well, hypothetical states she has not canonically interacted with. This also means she can’t apply them to increase her better scaling arguments, since as mentioned there’s not really a good argument for anyone scaling to Todd in just the movie, and stuff like Gideon’s supposed coast busting and Even Older Scott existing are not a thing for it at all. To briefly cover how scaling might change if you include these multipliers for the best feats from the movie:

  • Power: 

    • Base = 2.4 Kilotons

    • X2 = 4.8 Kilotons

    • X10 = 24 Kilotons

    • X32 = 76.8 Kilotons

    • X10 + X7 = 168 Kilotons

    • X32 + X7 = 537.6 Kilotons

  •  Speed: 

    • Base = Mach 2018.39

    • X2 = Mach 4036.78

    • X10 = Mach 20183.9

    • X32 = Mach 64588.48 = 0.073 c

    • X10 + X7 = Mach 141287.3 = 0.161 c

    • X32 + X7 = Mach 452119.36 = 0.517 c

While I’m vaguely on this topic, some have also argued that the Exes are meant to get progressively stronger, meaning they should upscale feats done by exes previously in line. This is arguably pretty impressive, given Todd is only the midboss. However, I don’t feel there is anything to actually support that interpretation, given the one statement in the comic that supports this idea is from a Scott that was drunk and exhausted at the time, and there’s not a lot else in the series’ events supporting the idea of them literally all being stronger than each other. Some have argued that Takes Off gives further support to this idea, specifically citing this statement from Matthew. But if anything, Takes Off does nothing but debunk this idea completely, thanks to Matthew himself beating Gideon. I don’t think I need to spell out much further that the first ex beating the last ex in a fight is quite literally the most contradictory to the idea of “they get progressively stronger” that you could possibly get. 

Scott Pilgrim and Resurrections


(fanart by u/diversions)

Another commonly talked about topic with Scott Pilgrim scaling is how exactly to define the multiple methods characters arguably have to revive from death. To start off, the most blatant of these are the extra lives. These were able to bring Scott back from death almost instantly, and in the game Ramona is also able to buy these lives herself, in which they act similarly to how they work in the comic, so this is fair to include for her. The first point to talk about is that the movie’s version of how the lives work is different, as instead of respawning midfight, the resurrection instead seems to rewind time to before the fight happens for Scott to approach the whole situation differently. This method will not be considered here, as this is a complete contradiction to the original comic, this leads to the extra lives resurrection effectively having 2 different methods of working simultaneously, and Ramona lacks access to lives in the movie continuity in the first place. As the immediate respawn is the original version and is more consistent in the franchise as a whole, this debate is sticking to that. 

There are arguments people have for Scott Pilgrim characters having other methods of resurrection besides this, but I think these don’t really stand up to scrutiny. First off, there’s Save Points, which are confirmed to exist in the original comic universe. While that could be useful, the issue is that we don’t know anything about their specific functionality since no one is ever seen actually using them at any point. Because of this, there isn’t much reason to assume this is a valid method of revival, especially given the lives reviving Scott clearly don’t take him back to these save points when used in the comic. Some have also suggested that it’s implied Subspace allows users to revive from death, as after dying Scott was in his subspace just fine. However, there’s not really anything to confirm the idea that this was something he could have done without the extra life, as narratively speaking him having the extra life was treated as the sole reason he was not killed. In fact, Roxie specifically saying that Scott can still die in Subspace doesn’t make too much sense if you assume Subspace is a valid method of resurrection. 

Finally, there is a Word of God statement that those who end up killed in the Scott Pilgrim series will end up respawning in their homes, having “learnt their lesson". First off, this is a bit of a weird statement that’s not been backed up by too much in the actual series, given before Takes Off we’ve never seen characters who are defeated come back on screen. This is especially so with Takes Off, as while it is directly mentioned, the fact that earlier characters believed Scott was dead for good until Ramona proved he wasn’t means this could plausibly be written off as just a joke that’s not really meant to be accurate. But even if you were to treat this as canon, within a neutral ground fight there isn’t much reason to treat it as a viable method of revival for a debate anyways. Unless you want to give Ramona an unfair advantage by having the battle take place in close proximity to her house, there’s not much reason to assume she could reasonably return to the battle fast enough to continue the fight, as even Subspace has only been shown to let people quickly move several miles at a time at best. That’s also assuming she’d even want to try and continue the fight in the first place, since the “learnt their lesson” part of this implies anyone who gets killed in this manner would be compelled not to continue any fight that they got killed in. Meaning the only effective change it would have on any Scott Pilgrim debate is making a win via killing technically be a win via BFR instead, so it wouldn’t really matter. 

Card Game Scaling

One particular source that has been used to give some notable abilities to the Scott Pilgrim cast is Scott Pilgrim’s Precious Little Card Game. Most notably, some have argued that the game gives characters the ability to directly mess with the plot, citing these two cards specifically. But as you would expect from this being in this section and not being mentioned before now, I don’t buy using this. First off, card games are generally not discussed in VS for series that aren’t primarily based around them for the simple reason that there’s not really any reason to treat these mechanics as if they’re something the actual in-universe characters do. This is especially so with this card game, given the central conceit of it is randomly tossing a bunch of events in random order to make the gameplay happen, meaning it is by design completely incompatible with the original story. Speaking of which, the bigger issue is that the “plotline” that these cards can adjust is not referring to the plot of the game, as this is just the name for cards on the table you are able to add to your deck. Treating it as if these cards are genuinely affecting a real plot doesn’t really make much sense in the context of the game’s actual mechanics, and seems like something you would only do if you’re only looking at the description of these cards with no other context from the actual game, which I’m sure is not something anyone has done to buff the series unjustifiably. For more information I’d recommend reading the game’s actual instructions, as similar logic can be used to debunk the idea of plenty of other cards that people have taken literally to use for buffs which I’m not breaking down further since that would essentially be repeating the same issue over and over. 

Seconds

If you’ve been in discussions of Scott Pilgrim scaling, you have probably heard another comic made by Bryan Lee O’Malley called Seconds get tossed around at some point. First off, I would definitely recommend reading it for yourself because a lot of this following discussion assumes a general familiarity with this book’s events and will be spoiling elements of it. Anyways, according to some people, Seconds is a comic set in the same universe as Scott Pilgrim which buffs Subspace to multiversal levels, and also gives characters able to access it a bunch of broken hax. Well, to be blunt, no it’s fucking not, and I’m going to discuss why treating it like this is just completely invalid no matter how you look at it. 

To start simple, let’s actually talk about Seconds as a story on its own, since it’s worth establishing right off the bat that Seconds is about a different cast of characters entirely and has no real relevance to the story of Scott Pilgrim. The only thing actually connecting these series is a few background cameos and references to Scott Pilgrim which are completely irrelevant to the main story of the comic. That already would raise some eyebrows, as there would realistically be no reason to scale anyone from either comic to each other based on these events, given they only meet in passing at best. If you think just having a background cameo is enough to give characters scaling to that series, then boy do I have some Metroid buffs to share with you. And no, even the argument that “Scott’s the best fighter in the province so he’s automatically stronger than her” doesn’t make much sense given the setting of Seconds is deliberately meant to be a vague amalgamation of the various places Bryan lived, so there’s not much reason to assume it takes place in the same area as Scott Pilgrim. 

But that’s not the main argument for scaling, as the space Kate ends up going into at several points in the story has been argued to be Subspace. As Scott Pilgrim and his allies are more skilled in the use of Subspace, that means they should be superior to her use of it, right? Well, that’s when we get into the next big issue: The assumption that this space is meant to be Subspace is completely unfounded. These spaces are drastically different in so many ways I feel like I need to bust out a chart to properly demonstrate the issue here.

Similarities between the Seconds Space and Subspace

Differences between the Seconds Space and Subspace

- They look kind of similar visually

- It’s never referred to as Subspace in the first place

- Kate is never seen using a door or other physical portal to enter this space 

- She never sleeps to enter the space

- It doesn’t operate under any kind of game logic

- It’s never used to go into other people’s minds 

- It can only go into and be exited from a single location 

- It’s never mentioned to be a something people have direct control over

- She never is shown to create an avatar to enter it

- Subspace has never been established to be something you need to eat foods to access the power of

- Subspace has never been shown to affect time

- Subspace has never been shown to be able to erase people or worlds

“But this is just showing that Subspace is different for different people and therefore it gives you a bunch of reality altering hax!” -

First off, that explanation doesn’t really address the central issue here, as there still is not any kind of definitive link between this space and Subspace in the first place besides “they look similar”. In fact, this explanation is a pretty textbook example of begging the question, since it’s pretty self justifying, as it would inherently ignore all the contradictions with assuming these spaces are the same, despite the fact it really only makes sense if you go into Seconds while under the assumption it’s the correct interpretation of the text. Beyond that, it allegedly offering this level of control over reality itself also contradicts how Subspace and the world in general was established to work within Scott Pilgrim itself. Characters like Ramona, Roxy, and Gideon are all treated as experts on Subspace, and yet they always treat the game mechanic rules of the world in the series as if it’s just how it works, they never at any point in any continuity imply it’s something that could be used to manipulate reality itself differently. And there’s no reason to assume Scott is just unconsciously somehow better than them at messing with Subspace. Finally, considering that it’s been stated in interviews that the idea of Seconds came to Bryan while he was in the middle of making Scott Pilgrim, as well as the fact that he had a lot of involvement with the Takes Off series which stays in line with the original series in terms of how Subspace operates, these contradictions can’t just be written off as a simple retcon either. So if these spaces are indeed meant to be the same, then why are there so many contradictions with nothing to definitively link them? Well, there is a very simple solution here: they’re not meant to be the same spaces in the first place. 

Even if you assume these spaces are the same, the feats people cite characters doing in this space aren’t something that’s really fair to scale anyone in Scott Pilgrim too. One character people have cited is Lis, who does show a few weird powers, most notably in how she’s seemingly able to grow things to be larger than universes. But not only is there the issue of these feats being the result of taking symbolic imagery literally, these lights are not meant to be whole universes, but rather representations of the restaurant the story is centered around that act as portals to these alternate timelines. And it’s also worth noting that Lis is not human, but rather a house spirit, so it would also be easy to attribute these abilities to her being a separate species entirely rather than her use of this space specifically. And if you say she’s a human ghost, that would imply she’s long lived, which instead knocks against the idea of her being less experienced than the Scott Pilgrim cast, meaning either way it’s hard to justify anyone from Scott Pilgrim could recreate her abilities. 

As for what the main character does, the comic does jump around between alternate timelines at a few points, and some have suggested that this is meant to be Kate making new universes with subspace. But not only is this something she does with the aid of magic mushrooms, not anything with power from the actual space, near the end it’s established this is just her jumping between alternate timelines, not creating them entirely. Some have also argued that the end of the comic involves the multiverse getting erased as a result of her actions, but the issue is that this wasn’t the whole timeline being erased, but rather this a consequence of Katie overusing the mushrooms to jump between many timelines and eventually ending up in a dead one. The entire comic is about the consequences of her running away from her choices, so it doesn’t make sense to assume this is something she just did all at once. And even if you were to treat it as this, the reversing of this by Lis was also only possible with the use of the mushrooms. And the same deal lies in the more broken abilities she seems to use, as time manipulation and existence erasure are also things she only does after using these mushrooms. As such, even if these spaces were meant to be one and the same, as the feats which involve affecting it were not done with power of the space being channeled, but rather with the aid of magic mushrooms that the Scott Pilgrim characters have no knowledge of or access to, there’s not much reason to say they could hypothetically do the stuff Kate does just by being more skilled than her. It would be like arguing that a martial artist can punch as hard as a shotgun just because a guy holding a shotgun isn’t skilled in martial arts.

Finally, now there’s the biggest issue with this scaling, which is against the central conceit of Seconds being relevant to Scott Pilgrim from a versus perspective at all. Simply put, the idea that Seconds is meant to be an extension of the Scott Pilgrim world has never actually been supported by anything official. The sources that say they are connected are unofficial ones that just assume they’re connected with no actual source or backing to fact check or confirm that idea. In fact, from my own research, there is far more evidence that in reality the opposite is true, in that these were never intended to be a shared universe in the first place. The most obvious indication of this is that the creation of the whole book was in part meant to be about Bryan’s real life struggle in trying to figure out how to follow up the success of Scott Pilgrim as a series after ending it. To quote an interview with him:

Interviewer: So, the thing that struck me in the first couple chapters of the book was that I couldn’t help but see Katie’s wanting to move on from Seconds as a barely veiled metaphor for you and Scott Pilgrim, or maybe even comics in general. And there’s this issue of having already had a first success, and wanting to distance oneself from that success, which is a very different problem than a lot of your characters have had in the past.

Bryan: Yeah, exactly. You’re actually the first person to bring that up. I was thinking, Is this way too blatant? But I mean, yeah, it’s there, it’s kind of the underlying backbone of the story.

Interviewer: And it’s a really relatable thing to start it on, too, before you get into magic mushrooms and everything.

Bryan: It’s just kind of a real-life frustrating situation to be in. And after - what? - seven years working on Scott Pilgrim, I was just like, how do I even move on? I was desperate to move on for years, and I had to finish it, and then finally I got to it, and I don’t know, it just kind of felt natural to write that into the story. I always like to write where I’m at in real life into whatever I’m working on.

And this is a pretty clear theme of the book if you read it, as well as something he’s talked about in many other interviews. So the idea of treating Seconds as if it’s the secret sequel to Scott Pilgrim basically requires fundamentally ignoring one of the main themes of the entire story. And beyond that, there’s also several other statements from interviews where he directly states that he considers Seconds to be a separate story from the Scott Pilgrim series, as well as directly commenting that he intended Seconds to be a completely standalone story on his tumblr. On that note, in neither that tumblr nor in other interviews has he ever said anything implying or backing up the idea that he considers any of his comics to be connected story wise or there being a secret shared universe between all of them. And if that’s not enough for you, he has directly stated his ideas of an expansion of Scott Pilgrim’s world are ones that would be focused on the comic’s main characters, not whole new ones, which a comment he said while he was still working on Seconds. Considering he’s the guy who actually made these comics, this is kind of a big issue, and without a doubt the biggest fatal flaw with this scaling. There simply has never been any kind of official backing for the idea of Seconds being part of the same world as Scott Pilgrim, meaning there is simply no justifiable reason to treat it as such for VS in the first place. 

TLDR: To accept Seconds scaling, you would have to accept the idea that a narratively disconnected comic that has completely different rules to the original in terms of the main space people care about is meant to be an extension of the Scott Pilgrim world based solely off of minor background cameos and references. These are also something you would also have to treat as a more valid indication of the series’ continuity than the multiple Word of God statements to the contrary. Even without those issues, the actual context for the feats within the story means there’s not a good argument to scale these back to the Scott Pilgrim cast for feats or abilities in the first place, which is without even mentioning that some of said feats are questionably applicable on their own merits. So no, Scott Pilgrim does not and should not scale to a multiversal cosmology. 

Also for the love of god please actually read Seconds because it’s good and deserves to be talked about for more than just how it could buff Scott Pilgrim. 

Other Scott Pilgrim Misconceptions

This will be a more rapid fire section for some other topics that don’t really warrant having a separate section, as well as being generally irrelevant to the debate, but as there are a few other points with Scott Pilgrim scaling that I feel are subject to some common misconceptions, I still feel the need to discuss this. 

  • Doesn’t Scott have Plot Manipulation?

    • Already went over the issue with the example from the card game. As for this moment, this is clearly just a meta joke, there’s no real reason to take it literally and assume he is literally changing the plot here. This Word of God statement also does not support this idea at all. In fact, given he’s specifically denying the idea that the person asking the question put forward, you can probably interpret it as him implicitly debunking the idea that Scott has some kind of control over the plot. Finally, even if it was real, there’s no real reason to assume it’s done with Subspace, so it’s irrelevant to Ramona anyways. 

  • Shouldn’t she have Transmutation?

    • While enemies do consistently end up turning to coins upon being killed in the Scott Pilgrim series, as it’s never been confirmed to be the result of a specific ability all characters have and has just been treated as a fact of life in the world, it seems more likely that this is just a quirk of this world being one based around game mechanics. Essentially, this is not a case of everyone in Scott Pilgrim having transmutation, but rather people from the Scott Pilgrim world just turn into coins when they die for no real reason. 

  • Aren’t Crash and the Boys able to bend space and time?

    • There is no reason to not treat this as an exaggeration for the sake of a gag. Even beyond that, it’s too vaguely defined to really claim what it really means for scaling. 

  • Shouldn’t she have Cheat Codes?

    • There is no reason to treat them as canon, and none of them have functions that are relevant for VS regardless. 

  • How does this change Scott vs Travis?

    • Scott still gets stomped and I do not think there is a good argument he doesn’t. Even under equal stats, he simply does not have any advantages that matter.

Wyldstyle

Aren’t the Lego Movie guys just meant to be toys?

Yes, but that doesn’t really matter in VS terms. While the Lego Movies are just a kid playing with them in universe, that’s not really a good reason to say they’re meant to just be actual toys stat wise. It’s been shown at many points that the humans are basically just beings above the Lego Universe who are able to adjust their story, whereas what’s happening within these stories is treated as just the base universe to everyone within it. For the sake of versus, any battle that involves the Lego Movie Universe would naturally have to take place within this base universe. To quote another blog on a similar matter, this is effectively no different from plenty of other cases where the main universe of a series is within a higher being’s dream, like with Spongebob Squarepants or Adventure Time, and is still allowed to interact with other universes that don’t have these caveats. This is more a general point I’ve seen against Lego Movie related matches being feasible, but I still feel it’s important to establish that yes, this battle can actually happen. Just imagine Finn is making Wyldstyle fight an action figure of Ramona in real life or something. 

Also to anyone trying to use this for some kind of reality transcending argument, the minifigures only ever end up in the real world through circumstances they can’t replicate on their own, such as Finn’s portal tubes or Armamageddon, so they can’t just naturally transcend their universe. And they never do anything to imply they now transcend their previous universe in power, as they’re treated as physically weak by human standards in the real world. So no, there is not a Lego Movie cosmology that anyone here should scale to. 

Star Level Lego Movie?


(if you understand the joke here you’re based)

In one of the Turkish Airlines safety shorts (yes, we’re scaling airline safety videos now), at one point the animation ends up taking the form of constellations shifting, which could imply cosmic levels of power. But there are issues in scaling anyone to it. First off, it’s vague to the point where it isn't totally clear who or what is even doing this, since no character in the scene seems to be explicitly the one who manipulates the stars into acting like this. That’s also assuming it’s even meant to be real, given the context of the short is that Batman is actively directing it in real time, which could imply this is meant to be some kind of special effect in-universe and not them literally shifting these stars. Finally, even if you ignore the vagueness of it, the fact there’s no other cosmic level feats like this anywhere else in the continuity means this would be a very blatant outlier anyways. So no, this is not valid. 

Batman’s FTL Travel Feat

One particularly odd moment that could imply fast movement speeds is from when Batman ends up taking the hyperdrive from the Millennium Falcon. Given the ship flew off into space before he’s seen to have come back and it was shown to be in the middle of an asteroid belt, this could imply that he somehow was able to get back to the group at faster than light speeds. First off, I have seen higher calculations that assumed he went to another solar system, but there’s not much reason to assume that in my opinion. Anyways, while this is a decently fast feat as face value, I think there are some issues with it beyond that. For one, Batman has never been shown to be able to travel at this speed or even have the ability to fly interstellar distances on his own. There’s also the easier conclusion of this instead being an instance of him teleporting, whether that be with some kind of gadget or just through plain old toon force, which is a lot more consistent with his shown capabilities. Finally, even if you were to assume this is a genuine instance of him moving that far, the fact the journey is offscreen means there isn’t really much to suggest he could actually scale to the trip in terms of his reactions, and the fact no one noticed until he came back means you can’t scale anyone else to it either. So while this is a funny feat, it has plenty of issues preventing it from being genuinely usable in my opinion. And there are more genuine methods to get the Lego Movie to MFTL speeds anyways, as seen with…

Travelling to Systar

A major element of the second movie involves visits to the Systar System. While its distance is just up the stairs from the basement to another room in the house in real life, it is treated as if it’s in another star system within the Lego universe, and the characters are shown explicitly moving through cosmic distances with ships to get to it, so I feel it’s fair to treat it as such. As for if this is a travel only feat, we also see that this path involves going through an asteroid belt that they need to maneuver through at these speeds, indicating this is something that can apply to their reactions. The real questionable bit with this feat is that the distance between the star systems is shown to be through the Stairgate, which seems to act similarly to a wormhole. This could suggest that they’re not actually flying through the whole distance between each star system, but not only is it kind of vague and unexplained, the gate is also shown to be at the edge of the solar system where Apocalyspseburg was originally, so at the very least that would still indicate these ships are fairly fast. 

There are a couple other notable feats which could imply similar speeds, but they’re a bit less concrete to fully apply numbers to. For one, in the Emmet’s Holiday Party short, Mayhem seems to do this trip nigh instantly, which could imply it can be pushed even higher. However, not only is it a bit vague if she actually travelled the whole distance for this feat, but we also don’t really have anything implying it was literally this fast as it was edited, as opposed to the trip just getting truncated for the sake of being part of a short. Wa'Nabi’s own rocket is also shown to be able to quickly travel between planets during one of her songs, but not only is the distance between these planets pretty vague, it’s also unclear if anyone is actively piloting it and if they had to react to anything while the ship is moving, so no one can really be argued to actually scale to it for their reactions. 

Infinite Speed for the Lego Movie?

Some statements for the Lego Movie that can imply ludicrous speeds come from Metalbeard stating the Octan Tower had infinite floors, as well as Lord Business describing the portal below his tower to the real world as an “Infinite Abyss of Nothingness”. While both of these seem impressive, there are issues in taking these literally for any kind of speed feat. First of all, these are clearly exaggerations. The tower is visibly large but still finite, and it’s implied no one ever ventured into the portal and came back before Emmet did so, meaning there’s not much reason to assume Business would be able to speak accurately about the abyss’s size. It’s also worth noting these events are being made by a kid who would definitely exaggerate that kind of thing if he’s just describing it in a story. There’s also not really any other statements that support the conclusion that either are meant to be literally infinite in size. Finally, even if you were to treat these as literal, there really isn’t anything to go on for actually scaling anyone to the speed needed to cross either. No one ever goes up the whole tower all at once, and for the infinite speed to count, you have to travel literally the whole thing, not just go most of the way. The only character you could say went the whole way was Emmet, but he did not travel on his own, he just fell past one and through the other, so there’s no reason to treat it as a speed feat for him. He also has never been seen to react to or dodge anything during either of his journeys, so there’s also no reason to claim he has infinite reactions from this either. 

Stuff from Dimensions I’m Not Including

As a playable character in Lego Dimensions, there are plenty of general bits of equipment that Wyldstyle could have access to from it that I haven’t brought up. However, this is because they can’t really be argued to be standard for her. For one, the main portal itself is how she can get access to the various vehicles and equipment the other playable characters get in their packs. As these are not things she possesses in character herself, these aren’t things she’d have access to here. There’s also the keystones, which can be used to activate various powers in the levels for puzzles, but as this is reliant on a specific environmental element, she can’t use this power in a neutral ground fight either. Finally, in the ending of the game she was able to trap Lord Vortech in a rift loop between dimensions to defeat him with a device made by the Doctor. However, not only was this was one of three devices she had to use in tandem with Batman and Gandalf, it also was reliant on the Doctor finishing the job by having the TARDIS power it, so it’s not likely that she could use it to recreate this trap here with no outside help. 

A related topic comes from the idea of respawns arguably being canon. If you’ve played any of the Lego games, you probably know that whenever you die, you immediately respawn with just some lost coins that you can just pick up, which the Lego Movie games also have. This is typically meant to just be a game mechanic, but in Dimensions characters actually react to dying and coming back, implying it’s meant to be a canon element in this game. Seems interesting, but this is pretty blatantly contradicting the Lego Movie universe treating death as a far more permanent affair. So in the interest of avoiding double standards, given that similar contradictory elements were not allowed for Ramona, I feel it’s not too fair to include this either.  

Is the Unikitty Show canon?

This cartoon is in a pretty weird spot even by the loose continuity standards of this series. On the one hand, there are quite a few bits which could imply the show is meant to be a canon extension of the movies. Most notably, her brother Puppycorn, a character original to the show, briefly shows up in the second movie, as well more explicitly in the game. There’s also an episode of the show in which a Batman voiced by Will Arnett shows up, further implying a canon connection between these worlds. However, there are also plenty of issues with saying it’s fully canon. For one, the above mentioned cameos are the only cases of these worlds directly crossing over, and the Unikitty show otherwise has a completely different story to what’s established in the movies, such as Unikitty running a palace called Unikingom instead of Cloud Cuckoo Land, which imply it's meant to take place in an alternate continuity. This is added to by the presence of several elements which imply the Unikitty show is an in-universe show for the Lego Movie’s characters, including the intro of the cartoon depicting it as a show that the more standard Lego characters watch, and Finn’s sister having a plushie of Unikitty, which is specifically in the show’s art style. This instead indicates that this is a situation similar to the Buzz Lightyear of Star Command cartoon (or I guess Lightyear too), in which the Unikitty we see in the movies that Finn plays with is meant to be an in-universe toy made as merch for this cartoon. This means that there’s not much reason to assume the one from the movie and the one from the show can scale to each other, given they are completely disconnected continuity wise. As such, for the purposes of this blog, I do not think it’s fair to include it. 

Bat Verse Scaling?

In the Lego Batman Movie, this scene has Alfred note that Lego Batman had gone through the events of the Dark Knight Trilogy, the Burtonverse films, the Adam West series, and Batman vs Superman: Dawn of Justice. While this is a funny gag, there’s not much reason to try and use this as a genuine way to scale him to anything from any of these films. For one, these events being in one timeline leads to a lot of weird contradictions, such as multiple drastically different versions of each character somehow being the same person, his parents dying in 3 different ways, and Gotham as a city getting drastically different between films. There’s also issues in trying to line these events up with the events of the Lego Batman Movie, as to do so would be ignoring how Joker, Penguin, Two-Face, and Bane all die in their respective films, as well as Dick Grayson being long dead in the DCEU, and yet all of them are shown to be alive and well during the events of Lego Batman’s own film. This means arguing his version of these events all happened one to one with the original films is very questionable, since all we see of these events are these brief glimpses. Finally, even if you were to go down this road, as these films are all fairly grounded in terms of stats with the only strong feats being from tech that each Batman can’t personally scale to without going on other debatable tangents, this would not be affecting the scaling given here enough to really justify including it in the first place. As such, these films will not be used for his scaling. 

Spider Verse Scaling?

Yes, he is somehow relevant to this blog as well, I swear I am not sneaking him into these on purpose. A notable bit from Across the Spider Verse involves a brief stop in a Lego Universe, during which it’s established that Lego Spidey is a part of the movie’s Spider Society. The universe is animated in a manner similar to the Lego Movie, which could imply that there is a canon scaling chain between the Lego Movie and all the funny Spiderverse stuff. However, this is not actually meant to be the Lego Movie version of Spidey, but rather the universe it’s stated to be is actually the main Lego Marvel universe. This does make sense if you think about it, given the Lego Movie has only officially crossed over with the DC side of Lego, mainly due to it being a Warner Bros series. This scene being animated this way is likely just meant to be a reference to Phil Lord & Chris Miller being the brains behind both movie series rather than indicating it’s a canon part of the Lego Movie universe. And even if you ignore that, no one in any Lego Movie has directly met this version of Spidey and he’s never stated to even be a Master Builder, so there’s no real argument anyone would scale to him anyways.

Verdict

Stats

For power, there were multiple ends to talk about. Generally both did have quite a few feats in the wall to building level, though for both verses that was hardly the limit. For the best of their more consistent scaling, Ramona could scale to Scott taking a blast from his older self and potentially knocking an 80 foot guy into orbit, which could get to 1.54 and 2.4 Kilotons respectively. But this was a value Wyldstyle could easily exceed, thanks to scaling to the citizens of Gotham pulling together the city at 264.388 Kilotons and Garmadon’s generals surviving a volcanic eruption at 292.121 Kilotons, which kept her comfortably in the lead with just the base numbers. Though Ramona could arguably keep pace depending on how you want to interpret her multipliers for the movie feats, these are rather dubious to scale her too, and even at best wouldn’t make her significantly stronger, As such, power at the low end was generally equal, but generally it took less effort to argue it was leaning in Lucy’s favor. 

However, when factoring in their highest ends, things shift around. The best feat you really couldn’t contend with scaling Wyldstyle to would be Rex’s asteroid smashing at 2.372 Megatons. But even that could be comfortably exceeded by Nega Scott using antimatter, which was at least 10 times stronger at the bare minimum. And that’s before mentioning the moon punching vegan elephant in the room. The best feat Wyldstyle could possibly compare to in the Lego Movie universe was The Kraken’s San Francisco fog creation at 746.863 Megatons, and even that was a bit dubious given the vagueness of the feat and the Kraken being a massive kaiju no one ever really fights. But even assuming she scales to this, Todd’s moon punch was more than enough to blow it out of the water, as even the lowest version of it at 2.176 Petatons would be almost 3 million times stronger than the Kraken. So at the high end, power ultimately goes to Ramona. 

As for speed, this is yet another case where there’s a lot of comparable feats up to and including relativistic stuff. Now the Lego Movie does have a lot of instances of characters reacting to the speed of projectiles that might be light speed, but not only are the various laser beams a bit dubious to directly assume to be light speed due to a lack of supporting evidence, there’s also an issue in whether or not she fully scales to them in reactions, as generally her style of dodging them was wild flipping, meaning it’s likely this is more a case of her aim dodging. The one character who explicitly dodged one of these beams was Garmadon, but even that has the potential issue of being a text only feat we don’t really have anything to go on for calculating. As opposed, while certain relativistic arguments for Ramona did have similar issues, she actually had a very explicit faster than light feat from Lucas outspeeding camera flashes at 2.4 times the speed of light. This would make him well above any of the more direct reaction speed feats done by the Lego Movie cast. 

Though both did have higher tier feats. For Lucy, she could scale to the multiple instances of people flying to the Systar System, which could get to hundreds of thousands of times the speed of light. This was rather impressive, but it ultimately paled in comparison to Ramona’s best speeds thanks to Elder Scott’s subspace shenanigans, which could hit billions of times the speed of light. Even if you’re comparing the high end for Wyldstyle’s feat to the low end for Ramona’s, this would make Ramona about 78 thousand times faster than Wyldstyle. So no matter which end you use, Ramona will have a good edge in terms of speed. 

Arsenal & Abilities

In terms of the arsenal, there wasn’t too much question that Wyldstyle had a significant edge in sheer versatility. Beyond having access to far more options for weapons at the outset, her ability to Master Build meant that she could hypothetically make basically anything she wanted to fight Ramona. And while it is true that she would need a steady supply of bricks to make what she wanted, not only is it shown that Master Builders are fine building with real life materials in the game, but the Super Builder's Hat allowing her to have infinite bricks meant she’d never really run out of ways to keep building. Another advantage is that she had a lot better mobility. While Ramona’s skates did let her keep herself mobile in one on one duels, Wyldstyle has not only shown far better feats of agility, she also had access to options for flight with her jetpacks and many vehicles that she could build. This all meant that she could definitely keep the pace of the fight in her favor for a while. 

And even with Ramona’s better power, Wyldstyle did have an ace in the hole to ensure this wouldn’t just be a blitz and one shot in the Super Shield. This protecting her from any direct damage meant Ramona couldn’t smash her apart in one shot. And while Ramona might have better power, through scaling to the Gotham citizens Wyldstyle had significantly better lifting strength, meaning it was unlikely for Ramona to be able to forcibly disarm her of it in a direct tug of war. So that could give Wyldstyle the chance to figure out a way to take Ramona out. However, Ramona did have all she needed to cut through the bullshit to take Lucy down thanks to her abilities. 

First off, they did have a lot of comparable capabilities. Both could slightly fly, teleport around, had 4th Wall awareness, and were hard to kill permanently due to extra lives and an odd physicality respectively. However, when it came to more unique abilities, Ramona definitely had the edge. Thanks in no small part to her experience with Subspace and the Glow, she had all the tools she needed to resist a lot of the ways Wyldstyle could potentially win. She could teleport out of any attempts to trap her with her creations or the Kragle, and her ability to resist mental manipulation meant she likely wouldn’t end up distracted by any Broadway Force shenanigans. And even if Wyldstyle did manage to figure out a way to kill her, Ramona’s extra lives meant she’d be able to immediately come back into the fray and take her down before she has the chance to kill her enough to win.

Meanwhile, Ramona had two major win conditions. First off, taking the fight into Subspace would definitely be something Wyldstyle couldn’t counter. While Wyldstyule did have access to her method of going into mindscapes, she’s never used it as part of a fight or implied she had any kind of control within them, so she wouldn’t get anything by being brought there. On the other hand, Ramona’s control over it gave her quite a few options. She could quickly overwhelm her with clones, depower her abilities and gadgets to make it so she couldn’t do shit, or even teleport away from it to leave her there forever. Ramona’s other method is by spreading the glow, since Lucy has never shown to be able to personally resist mental attacks, she’d likely end up getting sealed within her own mind by it in short order. While she could make herself immune to damage, that wouldn’t necessarily mean she’d be protected by the side effects of it, and at that point she’d end up lost since she has no real way of crossing dimensions on her own.

The one method Lucy has to counter this would be with the Relic Scanner, which was shown to be able to counter portals between dimensions, implying it could counter Lucy getting sent to another dimension. However, context matters quite a bit. First off, it was only able to do this after Batman adjusted it, and considering his attachment wasn’t seen later nor did she use it for this again, it’s questionable if she still has access to this upgrade. It’s also worth noting that Batman’s explanation of what the upgrade did indicated he was disrupting the source of the rifts, which was the portal that Dimensions is based around. This could imply it was only able to disrupt it due to it being technological, which Subspace is not. It’s also worth noting that the rifts in Dimensions last a good deal longer than getting sent to Subspace, which could indicate she might not be able to get the chance to counter the process before ending up in Subspace. Finally, while it did counter them being sucked between dimensions, later the Scanner was unable to counter them getting forcibly stuck between dimensions with no way to leave, as they needed the Doctor to bail them out in that situation. So even if this might be able to reverse her getting brought to Subspace, it definitely wouldn’t be able to save her from being sealed in her own mind by the Glow with no way to get out. 

Tertiary Factors

Finally this section, which really doesn’t have too much to say on. Both of these two have gone on a lot of adventures and are generally treated as very skilled fighters. Ramona did have an edge in being more used to fighting unique enemies and not just mooks, but thanks to her dimension crossing Wyldstyle had an edge in more versatile experience. However, both were close enough on this front that there’s not much room to argue either had a significant edge. And their weaknesses were generally not going to hamper either of their chances in this debate specifically. 

Conclusion

“Hey, because I'll have a lot of trouble saying it later, let me say it now: I love you, Scott. And I run away from the thing that I love. But what I've done in the past doesn't have to define me. Help me keep remembering that, okay?”

Advantages:

  • Stronger at high ends

  • Faster

  • Better set of unique abilities

  • Could take Wyldstyle out with sealing via Subspace or the Glow

  • Generally equivalent in intellect

  • The Netflix series was indeed pretty good

  • Bisexual icon

Disadvantages:

“Everything's not awesome. Things can't be awesome all of the time, it's an unrealistic expectation. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to make everything awesome in a less idealistic kind of way. We should maybe aim for not bad, because not bad right now would be real great”

Advantages:

  • Arguably stronger at low ends

  • Far more versatile arsenal

  • Better mobility

  • Super Shield meant directly getting killed would be tricky

  • Relic Scanner could arguably counter being sealed via Subspace…

  • Generally equivalent in intellect

  • Dated Batman and Star Lord

  • Wyldstyle scales to Sonic whose girlfriend killed Ramona so gg

Disadvantages:

  • Far weaker at high ends

  • Slower

  • Better set of unique abilities

  • …but that was questionable and it definitely couldn’t counter the Glow 

  • The Lego Movie Adaptation Games are shockingly not good

  • Only potentially bisexual

This debate definitely had a lot more to discuss than you might think. Ramona did edge out statistically, but Wyldstyle did have plenty of options which could be used to keep up and hang in there. However, she ultimately lacked a way to take down Ramona or counter her more esoteric methods of winning, meaning 

Sourcelist:

Next Time

Comments

  1. MacedaaceFebruary 16, 2025 at 12:20 PM

    Yet another amazing blog. Next time is very hype. I've always wanted to see Pikmin covered in an in depth vs. Blog.

    ReplyDelete
  2. DarrylFebruary 17, 2025 at 1:25 PM

    Based Blog my dude.

    ReplyDelete

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